Working Stockdog

KathyH · Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:01 pm Post subject: pressure etc

I was just reading through some clinic reports in the Stockdog Journal. It was a report on a Bret Venable clinic (this is the guy who is known for training and selling the highest selling dog at Red Bluff).

Anyway there was a quote that made me sort of think, nothing revolutionary but sort of a different way of saying things that I was maybe ready to hear.

So here it is and I cite from the article which is quoting Venable:

"Pressure is put on a dog to help them let go of a thought, not to make them have a thought."

The more I thought about it, the more I liked it. It is also, something I could never have really understood when I first began figuring all this out.

FWIW on a frigid, frigid day!

Kathy/Iowa

Joan McGrath · Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject:

That makes perfect sense. You're pressuring the dog to stop a behaviour he already has in his head. Hmmm.

Amelia · Posted: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:42 pm Post subject:

Hello all,

"Pressure is put on a dog to help them let go of a thought, not to make them have a thought."

Maybe not. Often I use pressure to give a dog the opportunity to have a thought and make another choice. For me the most effective use of pressure is not the application of it, but the release.

In other words; Dogs don't learn from pressure, they learn from the release of it. The quicker I release the pressure on a dog, the faster that dog will learn the lesson. And timing is everything. If I wait too long to release the pressure after a correction, the lesson is completely lost and morphs into something I didn't intend. I see that happen at every dog trail I go to.

Cheers all,
_________________
Amelia Smith
www.BorderSmith.com
http://bordersmith.blogspot.com/

AnneJ · Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:02 am Post subject:

That makes a lot of sense. In the release of pressure, that is where the dog can come up with a new thought. If I imagine myself in the dog's position (or say someone was trying to teach me how to play tennis), I would probably have a hard time thinking under pressure, but if that pressure interrupted me doing something wrong, then was released I could try something different. If they just kept on yelling about my tennis swing without a pause, I'd probably go all to pieces or whack them with the racket.

ItsADogsLyfe · Posted: Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject:

abcollie · Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: pressure etc

KathyH · Posted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject:

Just a clarification. This quote was taken from a report of a clinic and was very definitely taken out of context!!!! I am sure the clinician filled in and around it.

What struck me was the wording (the "letting go of a thought"). I would imagine (with 99% certainty) that this was followed up by the release part.

Sorry to have confused things but we did get some good discussion and clarification!

Kathy/Iowa Smile

Sarah Boudreau · Guest

The way I read the quote it really sounded like the clinician was talking about the use of an electronic collar.

If you take the collar out of the picture Candy is right, it's about our timing of corrections, and I believe that timing is a learned process.

Getting the feel for the dog and timing corrections so that they become meaningful to the dog is a tough one. We all strive for that.

Sarah

KathyH · Posted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:41 pm Post subject:

Geez, now I feel really terrible. This poor clinician had one thing he said taken out of context by someone who (with good will) was writing up a clinic so people not there could read about it.

I, in turn, again with good will, passed one sentence from a larger article on.

There was NOOOOOOOOO implication of anything electric at all. The only thing mentioned was body pressure!

Just goes to show how easy it is to misinterpret and how fast all of us "contextualize" the context free!

Let's just drop it. It's not worth it; the discussion is getting circular, and I feel really bad about having brought it up. Confused

The next thing, someone will be accusing me of using a shock collar! (This is not a joke, I mentioned at one point years and years ago that I had a border collie who had had an e-collar used on her and the bad results. I also mentioned at some point that I had bouviers and border collies. Within a month, it got back to me that I was cross-breeding bouviers and border collies--I have never, ever bred a litter--and using an e-collar on border collies--never done that either).

Thanks to everyone who has replied but I think we'd be better off just dropping this. I'm real sorry I started it (it truly was innocent).

Kathy/Iowa

Gloria Atwater · Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:05 pm Post subject:

For what it's worth, and with due respect to poor Kathy ... Very Happy

I believe I know the author of the article, and it's probably regarding a Brett Venable clinic I attended earlier this fall, in Smith Valley, Nevada.

"Pressure is put on a dog to help them let go of a thought, not to make them have a thought."

I was there when he said this, and as near as I can encapsulate it, Brett was referring to encouraging a dog to let go of a wrong idea - (i.e. diving straight in and splattering sheep everwhere) - so that he'll then be receptive to the right idea. This is rather than trying to force-feed commands the dog isn't even hearing, using mechanical gimmicks, or bullying the dog into compliance. Or something like that.

The way Brett did his stuff was very pressure-and-release. To my eyes, it looked minimalist, quiet, and smooth, no gimmicks or gadgets or garden implements. Wink

He didn't even use a crook. He's geared mostly towards cattle dogs, is a big fan of the Tony McCallum lines, but seems to know his stuff.

Just FYI. Wink

Cheers ~

Gloria
_________________
You ask of my companions. Hills, sir, and the sundown, and a dog as large as myself that my father bought me. They are better than human beings, because they know but do not tell. ~~ Emily Dickinson

KathyH · Posted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:16 pm Post subject:

Thanks Gloria. I think that's who the clinician was and your description sounds as if it would fit in with the overall description.

Sounds like a good clinic!

Kathy/Iowa

Gloria Atwater · Posted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:04 am Post subject:

I enjoyed it! Smile

I've come to realise I don't have the calluses to really run with the cowdog crowd, but Brett himself had some good things to say, and he really did have an excellent feel for the dogs, and accomplished good things with little fuss.

I figure any clinician from whom I can draw some education is a good thing. Whether or not I adopt their methods whole cloth, the ideas or techniques I *do* take home with me are just more tools for the dog-handler's toolbox. Wink

Cheers ~

Gloria
_________________
You ask of my companions. Hills, sir, and the sundown, and a dog as large as myself that my father bought me. They are better than human beings, because they know but do not tell. ~~ Emily Dickinson

Haven · Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:05 am Post subject: